Discussion:
Total fees have almost crossed the block reward
Add Reply
Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-21 21:30:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the long
term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees
would replace the block reward.

At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have now
reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon

https://fork.lol/reward/feepct

While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think there
is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for some use
cases, at this point in the adoption curve.

Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point

http://segwit.party/charts/

Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's
quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if this
is of concern to some.

https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h

I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. Though
if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to
hear thoughts.
Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-21 22:02:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high volume senders
to be more efficient in their use of block space by batching transactions
and implementing SegWit, though this may not be the case for providers that
pass transaction fees along to their users.

We've been trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding efficient
use of block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we break down the
cost savings of implementing a new technique, it generally helps to hasten
their adoption. I suspect that in many cases this is an issue of education
- we should be more proactive in calling out inefficient uses of block
space.

Good resources to bookmark and share:

https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb

https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c788598

- Jameson

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the long
term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees
would replace the block reward.
At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have now
reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon
https://fork.lol/reward/feepct
While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think
there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for
some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.
Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point
http://segwit.party/charts/
Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's
quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if this
is of concern to some.
https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h
I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. Though
if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to
hear thoughts.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Jim Rogers via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-21 22:18:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
It seems that the exchanges are doing everything that they can to slow things. Not only have the major exchanges not implemented segwit yet, but a bigger, less addressed issue is that they have start applying transfer limits on crypto as well as cash. They do not respond for months to requests to upgrade limits, and this results in many transactions instead of one to transfer crypto to cold storage devices.



These issues may self-resolve over time, since I think they are all impacted by KYC and the explosive growth.





From: bitcoin-dev-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org [mailto:bitcoin-dev-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:03 PM
To: Melvin Carvalho <***@gmail.com>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward



I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high volume senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by batching transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be the case for providers that pass transaction fees along to their users.



We've been trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding efficient use of block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we break down the cost savings of implementing a new technique, it generally helps to hasten their adoption. I suspect that in many cases this is an issue of education - we should be more proactive in calling out inefficient uses of block space.



Good resources to bookmark and share:



https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb



https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c788598



- Jameson



On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org <mailto:bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > wrote:

I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the long term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees would replace the block reward.

At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have now reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon

https://fork.lol/reward/feepct

While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.

Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point

http://segwit.party/charts/

Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if this is of concern to some.

https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h

I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to hear thoughts.
Michel 'ic' Luczak via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-21 23:15:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi,

This is the first time I post on this list.

First of all, Thank you Jameson for the interview you gave yesterday, it’s been a model of calm and self-control for all of us.

I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right now are mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware (ledger & trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the market.

I personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain with less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a day.

I think there’s a lot of work to do in used education to make them understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a transaction confirmed and that’s the POS’ work to make sure the transaction is legit.

Regards, Michel.
Post by Jim Rogers via bitcoin-dev
I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high volume senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by batching transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be the case for providers that pass transaction fees along to their users.
We've been trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding efficient use of block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we break down the cost savings of implementing a new technique, it generally helps to hasten their adoption. I suspect that in many cases this is an issue of education - we should be more proactive in calling out inefficient uses of block space.
https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb <https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb>
https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c788598 <https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c788598>
- Jameson
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the long term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees would replace the block reward.
At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have now reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon
https://fork.lol/reward/feepct <https://fork.lol/reward/feepct>
While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.
Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point
http://segwit.party/charts/ <http://segwit.party/charts/>
Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if this is of concern to some.
https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h <https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h>
I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to hear thoughts.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-21 22:44:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Personally, I'm pulling out the champaign that market behaviour is
indeed producing activity levels that can pay for security without
inflation, and also producing fee paying backlogs needed to stabilize
consensus progress as the subsidy declines.

I'd also personally prefer to pay lower fees-- current levels even
challenge my old comparison with wire transfer costs-- but we should
look most strongly at difficult to forge market signals rather than
just claims-- segwit usage gives us a pretty good indicator since most
users would get a 50-70% fee reduction without even considering the
second order effects from increased capacity.

As Jameson Lopp notes, more can be done for education though-- perhaps
that market signal isn't efficient yet. But we should get it there.

But even independently of segwit we can also look at other inefficient
transaction styles: uncompressed keys, unconfirmed chaining instead of
send many batching, fee overpayment, etc... and the message there is
similar.

I've also seen some evidence that a portion of the current high rate
congestion is contrived traffic. To the extent that it's true there
also should be some relief there soon as the funding for that runs
out, in addition to expected traffic patterns, difficulty changes,
etc.


On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the long
term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees
would replace the block reward.
At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have now
reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon
https://fork.lol/reward/feepct
While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think there
is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for some use
cases, at this point in the adoption curve.
Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point
http://segwit.party/charts/
Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's
quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if this
is of concern to some.
https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h
I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. Though
if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to hear
thoughts.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Paul Iverson via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-21 23:35:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I agree with Greg. What is happening is a cause for celebration: it is the
manifestation of our long-desired fee market in action. That people are
willing to pay upwards of $100 per transaction shows the huge demand to
transact on the world's most secure ledger. This is what success looks
like, folks!

Now that BTC is being phased out as a means of payment nearly everywhere
(e.g., Steam dropping BTC as a payment option) (to be replaced with the
more-suitable LN when ready), I'd propose that we address the stuck
transaction issue by making replace-by-fee (RBF) ubiquitous. Why not make
every transaction RBF by default, and then encourage via outreach and
education other wallet developers to do the same?

The frustration with BTC today is less so the high-fees (people realize
on-chain transactions in a secure decentralized ledger are necessarily
costly) but by the feeling of helplessness when their transaction is
stuck. Being able to easily bump a transaction's fee for users who are in
a hurry would go a long way to improving the user experience.

Paul.


On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <
Post by Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
Personally, I'm pulling out the champaign that market behaviour is
indeed producing activity levels that can pay for security without
inflation, and also producing fee paying backlogs needed to stabilize
consensus progress as the subsidy declines.
I'd also personally prefer to pay lower fees-- current levels even
challenge my old comparison with wire transfer costs-- but we should
look most strongly at difficult to forge market signals rather than
just claims-- segwit usage gives us a pretty good indicator since most
users would get a 50-70% fee reduction without even considering the
second order effects from increased capacity.
As Jameson Lopp notes, more can be done for education though-- perhaps
that market signal isn't efficient yet. But we should get it there.
But even independently of segwit we can also look at other inefficient
transaction styles: uncompressed keys, unconfirmed chaining instead of
send many batching, fee overpayment, etc... and the message there is
similar.
I've also seen some evidence that a portion of the current high rate
congestion is contrived traffic. To the extent that it's true there
also should be some relief there soon as the funding for that runs
out, in addition to expected traffic patterns, difficulty changes,
etc.
On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the
long
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees
would replace the block reward.
At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have
now
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon
https://fork.lol/reward/feepct
While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think
there
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for some
use
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
cases, at this point in the adoption curve.
Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point
http://segwit.party/charts/
Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's
quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if
this
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
is of concern to some.
https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h
I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI.
Though
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to
hear
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
thoughts.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-22 00:30:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Every transaction is replace-by-fee capable already. Opt-in replace by fee as specified in BIP 125 is a fiction that held sway only while the income from fees or fee replacement was so much smaller than subsidy.
I agree with Greg. What is happening is a cause for celebration: it is the manifestation of our long-desired fee market in action. That people are willing to pay upwards of $100 per transaction shows the huge demand to transact on the world's most secure ledger. This is what success looks like, folks!
Now that BTC is being phased out as a means of payment nearly everywhere (e.g., Steam dropping BTC as a payment option) (to be replaced with the more-suitable LN when ready), I'd propose that we address the stuck transaction issue by making replace-by-fee (RBF) ubiquitous. Why not make every transaction RBF by default, and then encourage via outreach and education other wallet developers to do the same?
The frustration with BTC today is less so the high-fees (people realize on-chain transactions in a secure decentralized ledger are necessarily costly) but by the feeling of helplessness when their transaction is stuck. Being able to easily bump a transaction's fee for users who are in a hurry would go a long way to improving the user experience.
Paul.
Personally, I'm pulling out the champaign that market behaviour is
indeed producing activity levels that can pay for security without
inflation, and also producing fee paying backlogs needed to stabilize
consensus progress as the subsidy declines.
I'd also personally prefer to pay lower fees-- current levels even
challenge my old comparison with wire transfer costs-- but we should
look most strongly at difficult to forge market signals rather than
just claims-- segwit usage gives us a pretty good indicator since most
users would get a 50-70% fee reduction without even considering the
second order effects from increased capacity.
As Jameson Lopp notes, more can be done for education though-- perhaps
that market signal isn't efficient yet. But we should get it there.
But even independently of segwit we can also look at other inefficient
transaction styles: uncompressed keys, unconfirmed chaining instead of
send many batching, fee overpayment, etc... and the message there is
similar.
I've also seen some evidence that a portion of the current high rate
congestion is contrived traffic. To the extent that it's true there
also should be some relief there soon as the funding for that runs
out, in addition to expected traffic patterns, difficulty changes,
etc.
On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
Post by Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the long
term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that fees
would replace the block reward.
At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have now
reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon
https://fork.lol/reward/feepct <https://fork.lol/reward/feepct>
While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think there
is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for some use
cases, at this point in the adoption curve.
Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point
http://segwit.party/charts/ <http://segwit.party/charts/>
Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though it's
quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder if this
is of concern to some.
https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h <https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h>
I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. Though
if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting to hear
thoughts.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
2017-12-22 01:15:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
Post by Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
Every transaction is replace-by-fee capable already. Opt-in replace by fee
as specified in BIP 125 is a fiction that held sway only while the income
from fees or fee replacement was so much smaller than subsidy.
The distinction is does a next fee replacement hit the next block 99%
of the time or does it do so with 10% probability each successive
block that the original remains unconfirmed; eventually converging to
the same 99% but only after a non-trivial additional delay. As a
result it's still useful to flip it on.

I believe electrum has been defaulting to opt-in without any big problems.

There was discussion in the bitcoin core weekly irc meeting today
about defaulting it on. Some expressed the view that perhaps it
should be left off by default for the RPC because some industrial
users but I'm of the view that those users are both most likely to
want it on and also the most able to see it in the release notes and
change their settings.

Loading...