Discussion:
bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 24
(too old to reply)
Ilan Oh via bitcoin-dev
2017-10-20 17:24:34 UTC
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Raw Message
The only blocktime reduction that would be a game changer, would be a 1
second blocktime or less, and by less I mean much less maybe 1000
blocks/second. Which would enable decentralized high frequency trading or
playing WoW on blockchain and other cool stuff.

But technology is not developped enough as far as I now, maybe with quantum
computers in the future, and it is even bitcoins goal?

Also there is a guy who wrote a script to avoid "sybil attack" from 2x
https://github.com/mariodian/ban-segshit8x-nodes

I don't know what it's worth, maybe check it out, I'm not huge support of
that kind of methods.

Ilansky
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1. Improving Scalability via Block Time Decrease (Jonathan Sterling)
2. Re: Improving Scalability via Block Time Decrease
(=?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a1n_S=c3=a1nchez_de_Pedro_Crespo?=)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:52:48 +0800
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Improving Scalability via Block Time Decrease
gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
The current ten-minute block time was chosen by Satoshi as a tradeoff
between confirmation time and the amount of work wasted due to chain
A. Advances in technology in the last 8-9 years
B. A lack of any rigorous formula being used to determine what's the
optimal rate
C. The existence of similar chains that work at a much lower block times
Whilst I think we can all agree that 10 second block times would result in
a lot of chain splits due to Bitcoins 12-13 second propagation time (to 95%
of nodes), I think we'll find that we can go lower than 10 minutes without
much issue. Is this something that should be looked at or am I an idiot who
needs to read more? If I'm an idiot, I apologize; kindly point me in the
right direction.
https://medium.facilelogin.com/the-mystery-behind-block-time-63351e35603a
(section header "Why Bitcoin Block Time Is 10 Minutes ?")
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=176108.0
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1863/why-was-
the-target-block-time-chosen-to-be-10-minutes
Kind Regards,
Jonathan Sterling
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:41:51 +0200
From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a1n_S=c3=a1nchez_de_Pedro_Crespo?="
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Improving Scalability via Block Time
Decrease
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Blockchains with fast confirmation times are currently believed to
suffer from reduced security due to a high stale rate.
As blocks take a certain time to propagate through the network, if miner
A mines a block and then miner B happens to mine another block before
miner A's block propagates to B, miner B's block will end up wasted and
will not "contribute to network security".
Furthermore, there is a centralization issue: if miner A is a mining
pool with 30% hashpower and B has 10% hashpower, A will have a risk of
producing a stale block 70% of the time (since the other 30% of the time
A produced the last block and so will get mining data immediately)
whereas B will have a risk of producing a stale block 90% of the time.
Thus, if the block interval is short enough for the stale rate
to be high, A will be substantially more efficient simply by virtue of
its size. With these two effects combined, blockchains which produce
blocks quickly are very likely to lead to one mining pool having a large
enough percentage of the network hashpower to have de facto control over
the mining process.
Another possible implication of reducing the average block time is that
block size should be reduced accordingly. In an hypothetical 5 minutes
block size Bitcoin blockchain, there would be twice the block space
available for miners to include transactions, which could lead to 2
immediate consequences: (1) the blockchain could grow up to twice the
rate, which is known to be bad for decentralization; and (2) transaction
fees might go down, making it cheaper for spammers to bloat our beloved
UTXO sets.
There have been numerous proposals that tried to overcome the downsides
of faster blocks, the most noteworthy probably being the "Greedy
http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~yoni_sompo/pubs/15/btc_scalability_full.pdf
Personally, I can't see why Bitcoin would need or how could it even
benefit at all from faster blocks. Nevertheless, I would really love if
someone in the list who has already run the numbers could bring some
valid points on why 10 minutes is the optimal rate (other than "if it
ain't broke, don't fix it").
--
Ad?n S?nchez de Pedro Crespo
CTO, Stampery Inc.
San Francisco - Madrid
------------------------------
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https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 24
*******************************************
Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
2017-10-20 18:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
You could do that today, with one of the 3 interoperable Lightning implementations available. Lowering the block interval on the other hand comes with a large number of centralizing downsides documented elsewhere. And getting down to 1sec or less on a global network is simply impossible due to the speed of light.

If you want point of sale support, I suggest looking into the excellent work the Lightning teams have done.
The only blocktime reduction that would be a game changer, would be a 1 second blocktime or less, and by less I mean much less maybe 1000 blocks/second. Which would enable decentralized high frequency trading or playing WoW on blockchain and other cool stuff.
But technology is not developped enough as far as I now, maybe with quantum computers in the future, and it is even bitcoins goal?
Also there is a guy who wrote a script to avoid "sybil attack" from 2x
https://github.com/mariodian/ban-segshit8x-nodes
I don't know what it's worth, maybe check it out, I'm not huge support of that kind of methods.
Ilansky
Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
You can reach the person managing the list at
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest..."
1. Improving Scalability via Block Time Decrease (Jonathan Sterling)
2. Re: Improving Scalability via Block Time Decrease
(=?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a1n_S=c3=a1nchez_de_Pedro_Crespo?=)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:52:48 +0800
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Improving Scalability via Block Time Decrease
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
The current ten-minute block time was chosen by Satoshi as a tradeoff
between confirmation time and the amount of work wasted due to chain
A. Advances in technology in the last 8-9 years
B. A lack of any rigorous formula being used to determine what's the
optimal rate
C. The existence of similar chains that work at a much lower block times
Whilst I think we can all agree that 10 second block times would result in
a lot of chain splits due to Bitcoins 12-13 second propagation time (to 95%
of nodes), I think we'll find that we can go lower than 10 minutes without
much issue. Is this something that should be looked at or am I an idiot who
needs to read more? If I'm an idiot, I apologize; kindly point me in the
right direction.
https://medium.facilelogin.com/the-mystery-behind-block-time-63351e35603a
(section header "Why Bitcoin Block Time Is 10 Minutes ?")
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=176108.0
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1863/why-was-the-target-block-time-chosen-to-be-10-minutes
Kind Regards,
Jonathan Sterling
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:41:51 +0200
From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a1n_S=c3=a1nchez_de_Pedro_Crespo?="
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Improving Scalability via Block Time
Decrease
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Blockchains with fast confirmation times are currently believed to
suffer from reduced security due to a high stale rate.
As blocks take a certain time to propagate through the network, if miner
A mines a block and then miner B happens to mine another block before
miner A's block propagates to B, miner B's block will end up wasted and
will not "contribute to network security".
Furthermore, there is a centralization issue: if miner A is a mining
pool with 30% hashpower and B has 10% hashpower, A will have a risk of
producing a stale block 70% of the time (since the other 30% of the time
A produced the last block and so will get mining data immediately)
whereas B will have a risk of producing a stale block 90% of the time.
Thus, if the block interval is short enough for the stale rate
to be high, A will be substantially more efficient simply by virtue of
its size. With these two effects combined, blockchains which produce
blocks quickly are very likely to lead to one mining pool having a large
enough percentage of the network hashpower to have de facto control over
the mining process.
Another possible implication of reducing the average block time is that
block size should be reduced accordingly. In an hypothetical 5 minutes
block size Bitcoin blockchain, there would be twice the block space
available for miners to include transactions, which could lead to 2
immediate consequences: (1) the blockchain could grow up to twice the
rate, which is known to be bad for decentralization; and (2) transaction
fees might go down, making it cheaper for spammers to bloat our beloved
UTXO sets.
There have been numerous proposals that tried to overcome the downsides
of faster blocks, the most noteworthy probably being the "Greedy
http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~yoni_sompo/pubs/15/btc_scalability_full.pdf
Personally, I can't see why Bitcoin would need or how could it even
benefit at all from faster blocks. Nevertheless, I would really love if
someone in the list who has already run the numbers could bring some
valid points on why 10 minutes is the optimal rate (other than "if it
ain't broke, don't fix it").
--
Ad?n S?nchez de Pedro Crespo
CTO, Stampery Inc.
San Francisco - Madrid
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 24
*******************************************
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