Discussion:
Making OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard
Add Reply
Johnson Lau via bitcoin-dev
2017-11-15 18:02:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423 <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423> I propose to make OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard

I think FindAndDelete() is one of the most useless and complicated functions in the script language. It is omitted from segwit (BIP143), but we still need to support it in non-segwit scripts. Actually, FindAndDelete() would only be triggered in some weird edge cases like using out-of-range SIGHASH_SINGLE.

Non-segwit scripts also use a FindAndDelete()-like function to remove OP_CODESEPARATOR from scriptCode. Note that in BIP143, only executed OP_CODESEPARATOR are removed so it doesn’t have the FindAndDelete()-like function. OP_CODESEPARATOR in segwit scripts are useful for Tumblebit so it is not disabled in this proposal

By disabling both, it guarantees that scriptCode serialized inside SignatureHash() must be constant

If we use a softfork to remove FindAndDelete() and OP_CODESEPARATOR from non-segwit scripts, we could completely remove FindAndDelete() from the consensus code later by whitelisting all blocks before the softfork block. The first step is to make them non-standard in the next release.
Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
2017-11-15 19:54:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
As good of an idea as it may or may not be to remove this feature from the code base, actually doing so would be crossing a boundary that we have not previously been willing to do except under extraordinary duress. The nature of bitcoin is such that we do not know and cannot know what transactions exist out there pre-signed and making use of these features.

It may be a good idea to make these features non standard to further discourage their use, but I object to doing so with the justification of eventually disabling them for all transactions. Taking that step has the potential of destroying value and is something that we have only done in the past either because we didn’t understand forks and best practices very well, or because the features (now disabled) were fundamentally insecure and resulted in other people’s coins being vulnerable. This latter concern does not apply here as far as I’m aware.
In https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423 I propose to make OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard
I think FindAndDelete() is one of the most useless and complicated functions in the script language. It is omitted from segwit (BIP143), but we still need to support it in non-segwit scripts. Actually, FindAndDelete() would only be triggered in some weird edge cases like using out-of-range SIGHASH_SINGLE.
Non-segwit scripts also use a FindAndDelete()-like function to remove OP_CODESEPARATOR from scriptCode. Note that in BIP143, only executed OP_CODESEPARATOR are removed so it doesn’t have the FindAndDelete()-like function. OP_CODESEPARATOR in segwit scripts are useful for Tumblebit so it is not disabled in this proposal
By disabling both, it guarantees that scriptCode serialized inside SignatureHash() must be constant
If we use a softfork to remove FindAndDelete() and OP_CODESEPARATOR from non-segwit scripts, we could completely remove FindAndDelete() from the consensus code later by whitelisting all blocks before the softfork block. The first step is to make them non-standard in the next release.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev
2017-11-16 09:27:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Can you clarify what you mean by "whitelisting all blocks before the softfork block"?

The most conservative approach could be to leave the code in place until the very last non-segwit P2SH UTXO from before the soft fork block has been spent. But this would never happen if even a single private key is lost.

After making these transactions non-standard and removing the code, transactions containing these OP-codes could be considered valid (perhaps still checking the signature, etc). Some miners would still run the code and mine those transactions, but others wouldn't verify them. This is strictly less bad than losing those funds forever, but doesn't seem acceptable either.

Is there a variant of the above scenario where a miner puts up some very large deposit (e.g. 10x the size of the UTXO) if they mine such a legacy transaction, and can lose that if someone else runs the code and finds the transaction invalid?

Sjors
Post by Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
As good of an idea as it may or may not be to remove this feature from the code base, actually doing so would be crossing a boundary that we have not previously been willing to do except under extraordinary duress. The nature of bitcoin is such that we do not know and cannot know what transactions exist out there pre-signed and making use of these features.
It may be a good idea to make these features non standard to further discourage their use, but I object to doing so with the justification of eventually disabling them for all transactions. Taking that step has the potential of destroying value and is something that we have only done in the past either because we didn’t understand forks and best practices very well, or because the features (now disabled) were fundamentally insecure and resulted in other people’s coins being vulnerable. This latter concern does not apply here as far as I’m aware.
Post by Johnson Lau via bitcoin-dev
In https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423 <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423> I propose to make OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard
I think FindAndDelete() is one of the most useless and complicated functions in the script language. It is omitted from segwit (BIP143), but we still need to support it in non-segwit scripts. Actually, FindAndDelete() would only be triggered in some weird edge cases like using out-of-range SIGHASH_SINGLE.
Non-segwit scripts also use a FindAndDelete()-like function to remove OP_CODESEPARATOR from scriptCode. Note that in BIP143, only executed OP_CODESEPARATOR are removed so it doesn’t have the FindAndDelete()-like function. OP_CODESEPARATOR in segwit scripts are useful for Tumblebit so it is not disabled in this proposal
By disabling both, it guarantees that scriptCode serialized inside SignatureHash() must be constant
If we use a softfork to remove FindAndDelete() and OP_CODESEPARATOR from non-segwit scripts, we could completely remove FindAndDelete() from the consensus code later by whitelisting all blocks before the softfork block. The first step is to make them non-standard in the next release.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
2017-11-27 16:33:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I strongly disagree here - we don't only soft-fork out transactions that
are "fundamentally insecure", that would be significantly too
restrictive. We have generally been willing to soft-fork out things
which clearly fall outside of best-practices, especially rather
"useless" fields in the protocol eg soft-forking behavior into OP_NOPs,
soft-forking behavior into nSequence, etc.

As a part of setting clear best-practices, making things non-standard is
the obvious step, though there has been active discussion of
soft-forking out FindAndDelete and OP_CODESEPARATOR for years now. I
obviously do not claim that we should be proposing a soft-fork to
blacklist FindAndDelete and OP_CODESEPARATOR usage any time soon, and
assume that it would take at least a year or three from when it was made
non-standard to when a soft-fork to finally remove them was proposed.
This should be more than sufficient time for folks using such weird (and
largely useless) parts of the protocol to object, which should be
sufficient to reconsider such a soft-fork.

Independently, making them non-standard is a good change on its own, and
if nothing else should better inform discussion about the possibility of
anyone using these things.

Matt
Post by Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
As good of an idea as it may or may not be to remove this feature from
the code base, actually doing so would be crossing a boundary that we
have not previously been willing to do except under extraordinary
duress. The nature of bitcoin is such that we do not know and cannot
know what transactions exist out there pre-signed and making use of
these features.
It may be a good idea to make these features non standard to further
discourage their use, but I object to doing so with the justification of
eventually disabling them for all transactions. Taking that step has the
potential of destroying value and is something that we have only done in
the past either because we didn’t understand forks and best practices
very well, or because the features (now disabled) were fundamentally
insecure and resulted in other people’s coins being vulnerable. This
latter concern does not apply here as far as I’m aware.
On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:02 AM, Johnson Lau via bitcoin-dev
In https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423 I propose to
make OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard
I think FindAndDelete() is one of the most useless and complicated
functions in the script language. It is omitted from segwit (BIP143),
but we still need to support it in non-segwit scripts. Actually,
FindAndDelete() would only be triggered in some weird edge cases like
using out-of-range SIGHASH_SINGLE.
Non-segwit scripts also use a FindAndDelete()-like function to remove
OP_CODESEPARATOR from scriptCode. Note that in BIP143, only executed
OP_CODESEPARATOR are removed so it doesn’t have the
FindAndDelete()-like function. OP_CODESEPARATOR in segwit scripts are
useful for Tumblebit so it is not disabled in this proposal
By disabling both, it guarantees that scriptCode serialized inside
SignatureHash() must be constant
If we use a softfork to remove FindAndDelete() and OP_CODESEPARATOR
from non-segwit scripts, we could completely remove FindAndDelete()
from the consensus code later by whitelisting all blocks before the
softfork block. The first step is to make them non-standard in the
next release.
 
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
2017-11-27 21:06:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
It is relevant to note that BIP 117 makes an insecure form of CODESEPARATOR delegation possible, which could be made secure if some sort of CHECKSIGFROMSTACK opcode is added at a later point in time. It is not IMHO a very elegant way to achieve delegation, however, so I hope that one way or another this could be resolved quickly so it doesn’t hold up either one of those valuable additions.

I have no objections to making them nonstandard, or even to make them invalid if someone with a better grasp of history can attest that CODESEPARATOR was known to be entirely useless before the introduction of P2SH—not the same as saying it was useless, but that it was widely known to not accomplish what a early-days script author might think it was doing—and the UTXO set contains no scriptPubKeys making use of the opcode, even from the early days. Although a small handful could be special cased, if they exist.
Post by Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
I strongly disagree here - we don't only soft-fork out transactions that
are "fundamentally insecure", that would be significantly too
restrictive. We have generally been willing to soft-fork out things
which clearly fall outside of best-practices, especially rather
"useless" fields in the protocol eg soft-forking behavior into OP_NOPs,
soft-forking behavior into nSequence, etc.
As a part of setting clear best-practices, making things non-standard is
the obvious step, though there has been active discussion of
soft-forking out FindAndDelete and OP_CODESEPARATOR for years now. I
obviously do not claim that we should be proposing a soft-fork to
blacklist FindAndDelete and OP_CODESEPARATOR usage any time soon, and
assume that it would take at least a year or three from when it was made
non-standard to when a soft-fork to finally remove them was proposed.
This should be more than sufficient time for folks using such weird (and
largely useless) parts of the protocol to object, which should be
sufficient to reconsider such a soft-fork.
Independently, making them non-standard is a good change on its own, and
if nothing else should better inform discussion about the possibility of
anyone using these things.
Matt
Post by Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
As good of an idea as it may or may not be to remove this feature from
the code base, actually doing so would be crossing a boundary that we
have not previously been willing to do except under extraordinary
duress. The nature of bitcoin is such that we do not know and cannot
know what transactions exist out there pre-signed and making use of
these features.
It may be a good idea to make these features non standard to further
discourage their use, but I object to doing so with the justification of
eventually disabling them for all transactions. Taking that step has the
potential of destroying value and is something that we have only done in
the past either because we didn’t understand forks and best practices
very well, or because the features (now disabled) were fundamentally
insecure and resulted in other people’s coins being vulnerable. This
latter concern does not apply here as far as I’m aware.
On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:02 AM, Johnson Lau via bitcoin-dev
In https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423 I propose to
make OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard
I think FindAndDelete() is one of the most useless and complicated
functions in the script language. It is omitted from segwit (BIP143),
but we still need to support it in non-segwit scripts. Actually,
FindAndDelete() would only be triggered in some weird edge cases like
using out-of-range SIGHASH_SINGLE.
Non-segwit scripts also use a FindAndDelete()-like function to remove
OP_CODESEPARATOR from scriptCode. Note that in BIP143, only executed
OP_CODESEPARATOR are removed so it doesn’t have the
FindAndDelete()-like function. OP_CODESEPARATOR in segwit scripts are
useful for Tumblebit so it is not disabled in this proposal
By disabling both, it guarantees that scriptCode serialized inside
SignatureHash() must be constant
If we use a softfork to remove FindAndDelete() and OP_CODESEPARATOR
from non-segwit scripts, we could completely remove FindAndDelete()
from the consensus code later by whitelisting all blocks before the
softfork block. The first step is to make them non-standard in the
next release.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
2017-11-27 21:33:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Indeed, the PR in question does *not* change the semantics of
OP_CODESEPARATOR within SegWit redeemScripts, where it is still allowed
(and Nicolas Dorier pointed out that he was using it in TumbleBit), so
there are still ways to use it, but only in places, like SegWit, where
the potential validation complexity blowup is massively reduced.

I am not sure that OP_CODESEPARATOR is entirely useless in pre-SegWit
scripts (I believe Nicolas' construction may still be relevant
pre-SegWit), though I strongly believe FindAndDelete is.

I don't think CODESEPARATOR rises to the threshold of it being "widely
known to be useless", but certainly the historical use of it (to
separate the scriptSig and the scriptPubKey in the scriptCode, which was
run as a single concatenated thing in the original design is no longer
relevant). FindAndDelete is equally irrelevant if not significantly more
irrelevant.

Matt
Post by Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
It is relevant to note that BIP 117 makes an insecure form of
CODESEPARATOR delegation possible, which could be made secure if some
sort of CHECKSIGFROMSTACK opcode is added at a later point in time. It
is not IMHO a very elegant way to achieve delegation, however, so I hope
that one way or another this could be resolved quickly so it doesn’t
hold up either one of those valuable additions.
I have no objections to making them nonstandard, or even to make them
invalid if someone with a better grasp of history can attest that
CODESEPARATOR was known to be entirely useless before the introduction
of P2SH—not the same as saying it was useless, but that it was widely
known to not accomplish what a early-days script author might think it
was doing—and the UTXO set contains no scriptPubKeys making use of the
opcode, even from the early days. Although a small handful could be
special cased, if they exist.
Post by Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
I strongly disagree here - we don't only soft-fork out transactions that
are "fundamentally insecure", that would be significantly too
restrictive. We have generally been willing to soft-fork out things
which clearly fall outside of best-practices, especially rather
"useless" fields in the protocol eg soft-forking behavior into OP_NOPs,
soft-forking behavior into nSequence, etc.
As a part of setting clear best-practices, making things non-standard is
the obvious step, though there has been active discussion of
soft-forking out FindAndDelete and OP_CODESEPARATOR for years now. I
obviously do not claim that we should be proposing a soft-fork to
blacklist FindAndDelete and OP_CODESEPARATOR usage any time soon, and
assume that it would take at least a year or three from when it was made
non-standard to when a soft-fork to finally remove them was proposed.
This should be more than sufficient time for folks using such weird (and
largely useless) parts of the protocol to object, which should be
sufficient to reconsider such a soft-fork.
Independently, making them non-standard is a good change on its own, and
if nothing else should better inform discussion about the possibility of
anyone using these things.
Matt
Post by Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
As good of an idea as it may or may not be to remove this feature from
the code base, actually doing so would be crossing a boundary that we
have not previously been willing to do except under extraordinary
duress. The nature of bitcoin is such that we do not know and cannot
know what transactions exist out there pre-signed and making use of
these features.
It may be a good idea to make these features non standard to further
discourage their use, but I object to doing so with the justification of
eventually disabling them for all transactions. Taking that step has the
potential of destroying value and is something that we have only done in
the past either because we didn’t understand forks and best practices
very well, or because the features (now disabled) were fundamentally
insecure and resulted in other people’s coins being vulnerable. This
latter concern does not apply here as far as I’m aware.
On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:02 AM, Johnson Lau via bitcoin-dev
In https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11423 I propose to
make OP_CODESEPARATOR and FindAndDelete in non-segwit scripts non-standard
I think FindAndDelete() is one of the most useless and complicated
functions in the script language. It is omitted from segwit (BIP143),
but we still need to support it in non-segwit scripts. Actually,
FindAndDelete() would only be triggered in some weird edge cases like
using out-of-range SIGHASH_SINGLE.
Non-segwit scripts also use a FindAndDelete()-like function to remove
OP_CODESEPARATOR from scriptCode. Note that in BIP143, only executed
OP_CODESEPARATOR are removed so it doesn’t have the
FindAndDelete()-like function. OP_CODESEPARATOR in segwit scripts are
useful for Tumblebit so it is not disabled in this proposal
By disabling both, it guarantees that scriptCode serialized inside
SignatureHash() must be constant
If we use a softfork to remove FindAndDelete() and OP_CODESEPARATOR
from non-segwit scripts, we could completely remove FindAndDelete()
from the consensus code later by whitelisting all blocks before the
softfork block. The first step is to make them non-standard in the
next release.
 
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Loading...