Discussion:
[bitcoin-dev] Annoucing Not-BitcoinXT
Julie via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-16 22:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Announcing Not-BitcoinXT

https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt




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jl2012 via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 03:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to mining centralization, such attempts won't be successful.
Asking mining pools to mine spoofing blocks in their real name is even
harder than asking them to run the real BitcoinXT

Node count is always manipulable, there is nothing new. People running
this will only be interpreted as XT-supporters.
Post by Julie via bitcoin-dev
Announcing Not-BitcoinXT
https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt
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Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 07:04:18 UTC
Permalink
The fun thing about this, is you only need >25% of hashing power running Not-BitcoinXT to screw over the miners running XT, as XT blocks are valid Bitcoin blocks if they're on a valid Bitcoin chain.

75% upgrade thresholds have a lot of issues...
Post by Julie via bitcoin-dev
Announcing Not-BitcoinXT
https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt
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NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 10:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie via bitcoin-dev
Announcing Not-BitcoinXT
https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt
"This version can be used to protect the status quo until real technical consensus is formed about the blocksize."
"...real technical consensus..."
You mean the bunch of self-proclaimed Bitcoin wizards, who decided they have the right to tell everybody what to do, and who never got to grow up and are now angry at the world for not listening to them anymore? That "technical consensus"?

"Bitcoin is decentralized, but you are only allowed to do what we tell you to do. It's our pet project, we wrote code for it!"

That's what it all boils down to, all these dirty games of calling XT an alt-coin and censoring its posts, pretending to be Satoshi, sabotaging XT switch, etc.: "How dare they not listen to Us The Smartest anymore?!!!"

Pathetic. The history will roll over you in a blink. The harder you try, the quicker it will go.
Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 12:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

If you want to write such baseless acusations and inflamatory phrases, please do it somewhere else. We should have the highest respect for what these people are doing, and we should try to do something constructive, not waste time with anger and disrespect.

Nobody should be forced to do anything. People like you will not force me or anyone else to run code for your controversial hard fork just because you think the future will be bright with huge blocks. Just like the developers will not force you to continue running code implementing the current consensus rules.

The developers are not telling you what to do, they are trying to do what they consider is best for the ecosystem given their technical abilities.

Valiz

--------------------------------------------
În data de L, 17.8.15, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org> a scris:

Subiect: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Annoucing Not-BitcoinXT
Către: ***@toothandmail.com, bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Data: Luni, 17 August 2015, 13:09
Post by Julie via bitcoin-dev
Announcing Not-BitcoinXT
https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt
"This version can be
used to protect the status quo until real technical
consensus is formed about the blocksize."
Post by Julie via bitcoin-dev
"...real technical
consensus..."

You mean
the bunch of self-proclaimed Bitcoin wizards, who decided
they have the right to tell everybody what to do, and who
never got to grow up and are now angry at the world for not
listening to them anymore? That "technical
consensus"?

"Bitcoin is decentralized, but you are
only allowed to do what we tell you to do. It's our pet
project, we wrote code for it!"

That's what it all boils down to, all these
dirty games of calling XT an alt-coin and censoring its
posts, pretending to be Satoshi, sabotaging XT switch, etc.:
"How dare they not listen to Us The Smartest
anymore?!!!"

Pathetic.
The history will roll over you in a blink. The harder you
try, the quicker it will go.

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 13:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
We should have the highest respect for what these people are doing, and we should try to do something constructive, not waste time with anger and disrespect.
Why, exactly, should I have any respect for what these people are doing (and supposedly not have any respect for what the other side is doing)?

From my point of view, the XT side _does_ something constructive. It's the Core side that resorts to dirty tactics and tries to sabotage community's free choice instead.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
Nobody should be forced to do anything.
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?

Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
The developers are not telling you what to do, they are trying to do what they consider is best for the ecosystem given their technical abilities.
The developers & Co are doing their best to stay in power, so they could continue imposing their will on Bitcoin ecosystem. This is the real power grab, not Gavin and Hearn, who merely provided an alternative.

And the fear they show is most telling.
Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 14:03:02 UTC
Permalink
NxtChg,

In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything even closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed here.

Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the protocol
and have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.

This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part
it is a feature of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to change the rules
and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its most powerful attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly altered nor reversed by anyone.

We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past
and for the most part these changes have been pretty uncontroversial
or at least, they have not had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block size issue is having. And even then, we’ve encountered a number of problems with these deployments that have at times required goodwill cooperation between developers and mining pool operators to fix.

Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s being proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If even fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you imagine the kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some highly polarizing issue might raise? Do you really think people are going to want to cooperate?!?

I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other people might want feature X, others feature Y
and we can argue the merits of this or that to death
but the fact remains that we have NEVER attempted any hard forking change
not even with a simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer improvement that would not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by comparison
it could be any controversial change, really.

Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight
the first time an aircraft is ever flown
directly into combat without having tested the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that’s NEVER been done before in such a politically divisive environment basically amounts to
but it’s even worse. We’re basically risking the entire air force (not just one plane) over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should have that we’ve never flown before.

We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money that is on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least test out the system on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to make sure we can even deploy it without things breaking? I don’t even care about the merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be quite honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking about here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s NEVER been attempted before (and which as many have pointed out is potentially fraught with serious problems) on such a politically divisive, polarizing issue, the result is each side will refuse to cooperate with the other out of spite
and can easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets on both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of transactions we currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we wouldn’t even come close to touching big payment processors like Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol improvement that’s worth the risk.

I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here
and to understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out of some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy hard forks right now without facing these problems. And different people obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than trying to push some pet feature some of us want.

Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what’s right.
Post by NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
We should have the highest respect for what these people are doing, and we should try to do something constructive, not waste time with anger and disrespect.
Why, exactly, should I have any respect for what these people are doing (and supposedly not have any respect for what the other side is doing)?
From my point of view, the XT side _does_ something constructive. It's the Core side that resorts to dirty tactics and tries to sabotage community's free choice instead.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
Nobody should be forced to do anything.
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
The developers are not telling you what to do, they are trying to do what they consider is best for the ecosystem given their technical abilities.
The developers & Co are doing their best to stay in power, so they could continue imposing their will on Bitcoin ecosystem. This is the real power grab, not Gavin and Hearn, who merely provided an alternative.
And the fear they show is most telling.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 14:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything even
closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed here.
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the
protocol
and have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part
it is a feature
of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to change the
rules
and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its most powerful
attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly
altered nor reversed by anyone.
We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past
and for the most part
these changes have been pretty uncontroversial
or at least, they have not
had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block size issue
is having. And even then, we’ve encountered a number of problems with these
deployments that have at times required goodwill cooperation between
developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s being
proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If even
fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you imagine the
kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some highly polarizing
issue might raise? Do you really think people are going to want to
cooperate?!?
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other people
might want feature X, others feature Y
and we can argue the merits of this
or that to death
but the fact remains that we have NEVER attempted any hard
forking change
not even with a simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer
improvement that would not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper
remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the
fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by
comparison
it could be any controversial change, really.
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight
the first
time an aircraft is ever flown
directly into combat without having tested
the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that’s NEVER been
done before in such a politically divisive environment basically amounts
to
but it’s even worse. We’re basically risking the entire air force (not
just one plane) over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should
have that we’ve never flown before.
We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money that is
on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least test out the system
on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to make sure we
can even deploy it without things breaking? I don’t even care about the
merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be
quite honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking about
here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s NEVER been
attempted before (and which as many have pointed out is potentially fraught
with serious problems) on such a politically divisive, polarizing issue,
the result is each side will refuse to cooperate with the other out of
spite
and can easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets
on both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of transactions we
currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we wouldn’t even come close to
touching big payment processors like Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol
improvement that’s worth the risk.
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here
and to
understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out of
some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy hard
forks right now without facing these problems. And different people
obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these
changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially
giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have
proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief
that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than trying to
push some pet feature some of us want.
Yadayadayada.

If someone could threaten the network by releasing a hard-forking bitcoind
version, then already all is lost. Bitcoins stability does not (and cannot)
depend on the "good will" of anyone. If it would, we should all abandon
this silly project. Relying on the good will of people is the worst idea
one could have.

So please (please please) go ahead and release your hardforking bitcoinds
you have been holding back. Competition is everything.

Cheers

Levin
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are
doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what’s right.
On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:34 AM, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev <
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
We should have the highest respect for what these people are doing, and
we should try to do something constructive, not waste time with anger and
disrespect.
Why, exactly, should I have any respect for what these people are doing
(and supposedly not have any respect for what the other side is doing)?
From my point of view, the XT side _does_ something constructive. It's
the Core side that resorts to dirty tactics and tries to sabotage
community's free choice instead.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
Nobody should be forced to do anything.
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and
banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
The developers are not telling you what to do, they are trying to do
what they consider is best for the ecosystem given their technical
abilities.
The developers & Co are doing their best to stay in power, so they could
continue imposing their will on Bitcoin ecosystem. This is the real power
grab, not Gavin and Hearn, who merely provided an alternative.
And the fear they show is most telling.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 14:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Levin,

The hope is that eventually the network will be sufficiently resilient and robust to be able to handle anything that’s thrown at it. But it’s still a baby
and this is a serious problem indeed, because on the one hand we don’t want any central authority but on the other it still needs some guardians
and we don’t have anything resembling the kind of institution that could possibly be entrusted to nurture and care for this baby until it is ready to go out on its own.

Imagine, when the US Constitution was being written, if suddenly everyone started to just propose their own different version of it and insisting (under threat of fork) on their own versions before any sort of government could be created. Yes, I know the US federal government is not exactly the paragon of decentralization
but regardless of your views on the US government, it’s still a somewhat analogous situation. Until the system was in place, some people (who at the time were unelected) had to bootstrap the process.

For better or worse, Satoshi has left the picture
and no clear succession model was put in place. The Bitcoin Foundation, which for a time attempted to be a guardian institution, ended up self-destructing. It was an utter failure.

We don’t have any sort of institution like this
and we don’t really want one. But the system is still not fully in place. Importantly, we lack any mechanisms to be able to make potentially controversial changes without serious risks.

It would be amazing if despite this trial-by-fire we still survived and managed to pull through. And if we do we’ll be stronger for it. But quite sincerely, I would have wanted the system to be a little more mature before putting it through this trial. At least I would have liked to have gone through a test hard-fork using a far less politically divisive issue.

Anyhow, completely separate from my views on governance, etc
my main point is that we’re ALL trying to do what’s best given our understanding and resources
and we’ve all poured our hearts and souls into this. We might disagree on certain things, but let’s stop this negativity and misrepresentation and try to figure out a way forward that is less likely to lead to a war.


- Eric
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything even closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed here.
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the protocol
and have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part
it is a feature of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to change the rules
and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its most powerful attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly altered nor reversed by anyone.
We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past
and for the most part these changes have been pretty uncontroversial
or at least, they have not had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block size issue is having. And even then, we’ve encountered a number of problems with these deployments that have at times required goodwill cooperation between developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s being proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If even fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you imagine the kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some highly polarizing issue might raise? Do you really think people are going to want to cooperate?!?
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other people might want feature X, others feature Y
and we can argue the merits of this or that to death
but the fact remains that we have NEVER attempted any hard forking change
not even with a simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer improvement that would not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by comparison
it could be any controversial change, really.
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight
the first time an aircraft is ever flown
directly into combat without having tested the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that’s NEVER been done before in such a politically divisive environment basically amounts to
but it’s even worse. We’re basically risking the entire air force (not just one plane) over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should have that we’ve never flown before.
We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money that is on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least test out the system on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to make sure we can even deploy it without things breaking? I don’t even care about the merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be quite honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking about here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s NEVER been attempted before (and which as many have pointed out is potentially fraught with serious problems) on such a politically divisive, polarizing issue, the result is each side will refuse to cooperate with the other out of spite
and can easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets on both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of transactions we currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we wouldn’t even come close to touching big payment processors like Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol improvement that’s worth the risk.
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here
and to understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out of some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy hard forks right now without facing these problems. And different people obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than trying to push some pet feature some of us want.
Yadayadayada.
If someone could threaten the network by releasing a hard-forking bitcoind version, then already all is lost. Bitcoins stability does not (and cannot) depend on the "good will" of anyone. If it would, we should all abandon this silly project. Relying on the good will of people is the worst idea one could have.
So please (please please) go ahead and release your hardforking bitcoinds you have been holding back. Competition is everything.
Cheers
Levin
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what’s right.
Post by NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
We should have the highest respect for what these people are doing, and we should try to do something constructive, not waste time with anger and disrespect.
Why, exactly, should I have any respect for what these people are doing (and supposedly not have any respect for what the other side is doing)?
From my point of view, the XT side _does_ something constructive. It's the Core side that resorts to dirty tactics and tries to sabotage community's free choice instead.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
Nobody should be forced to do anything.
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
Post by Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
The developers are not telling you what to do, they are trying to do what they consider is best for the ecosystem given their technical abilities.
The developers & Co are doing their best to stay in power, so they could continue imposing their will on Bitcoin ecosystem. This is the real power grab, not Gavin and Hearn, who merely provided an alternative.
And the fear they show is most telling.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Adam Back via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 14:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Eric for saying what needs to be said.

Starting a fork war is just not constructive and there are multiple
proposals being evaluated here.

I think that one thing that is not being so much focussed on is
Bitcoin-XT is both a hard-fork and a soft-fork. It's a hard-fork on
Bitcoin full-nodes, but it is also a soft-fork attack on Bitcoin core
SPV nodes that did not opt-in. It exposes those SPV nodes to loss in
the likely event that Bitcoin-XT results in a network-split.

The recent proposal here to run noXT (patch to falsely claim to mine
on XT while actually rejecting it's blocks) could add enough
uncertainty about the activation that Bitcoin-XT would probably have
to be aborted.

Adam

On 17 August 2015 at 15:03, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything even closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed here.
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the protocol…and have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part…it is a feature of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to change the rules…and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its most powerful attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly altered nor reversed by anyone.
We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past…and for the most part these changes have been pretty uncontroversial…or at least, they have not had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block size issue is having. And even then, we’ve encountered a number of problems with these deployments that have at times required goodwill cooperation between developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s being proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If even fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you imagine the kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some highly polarizing issue might raise? Do you really think people are going to want to cooperate?!?
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other people might want feature X, others feature Y…and we can argue the merits of this or that to death…but the fact remains that we have NEVER attempted any hard forking change…not even with a simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer improvement that would not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by comparison…it could be any controversial change, really.
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight…the first time an aircraft is ever flown…directly into combat without having tested the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that’s NEVER been done before in such a politically divisive environment basically amounts to…but it’s even worse. We’re basically risking the entire air force (not just one plane) over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should have that we’ve never flown before.
We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money that is on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least test out the system on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to make sure we can even deploy it without things breaking? I don’t even care about the merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be quite honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking about here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s NEVER been attempted before (and which as many have pointed out is potentially fraught with serious problems) on such a politically divisive, polarizing issue, the result is each side will refuse to cooperate with the other out of spite…and can easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets on both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of transactions we currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we wouldn’t even come close to touching big payment processors like Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol improvement that’s worth the risk.
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here…and to understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out of some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy hard forks right now without facing these problems. And different people obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than trying to push some pet feature some of us want.
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what’s right.
GC via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 14:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Adam,

While greatly appreciating your prior efforts in crypto-ccy R&D and
current efforts for Blockstream, its not a plus for your reputation to be
using emotive terms like ³attack², ³fork war" and throwing so much FUD
into the developer email channel directly after Eric¹s email.

We would appreciate seeing your well-argued thoughts, not FUD and flaming.
There are multitudes of trolls in all forums already.

On 17/8/15 10:36 pm, "Adam Back via bitcoin-dev"
Post by Adam Back via bitcoin-dev
Thank you Eric for saying what needs to be said.
Starting a fork war is just not constructive and there are multiple
proposals being evaluated here.
I think that one thing that is not being so much focussed on is
Bitcoin-XT is both a hard-fork and a soft-fork. It's a hard-fork on
Bitcoin full-nodes, but it is also a soft-fork attack on Bitcoin core
SPV nodes that did not opt-in. It exposes those SPV nodes to loss in
the likely event that Bitcoin-XT results in a network-split.
The recent proposal here to run noXT (patch to falsely claim to mine
on XT while actually rejecting it's blocks) could add enough
uncertainty about the activation that Bitcoin-XT would probably have
to be aborted.
Adam
On 17 August 2015 at 15:03, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we¹ve never attempted anything even
closely resembling a hard fork like what¹s being proposed here.
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the
protocolŠand have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone¹s partŠit is a
feature of Satoshi¹s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to
change the rulesŠand this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its
most powerful attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that
cannot be suddenly altered nor reversed by anyone.
We¹ve managed to have a few soft forks in the pastŠand for the most
part these changes have been pretty uncontroversialŠor at least, they
have not had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block
size issue is having. And even then, we¹ve encountered a number of
problems with these deployments that have at times required goodwill
cooperation between developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what¹s being
proposed - we¹ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If
even fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you
imagine the kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some
highly polarizing issue might raise? Do you really think people are
going to want to cooperate?!?
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other
people might want feature X, others feature YŠand we can argue the
merits of this or that to deathŠbut the fact remains that we have NEVER
attempted any hard forking changeŠnot even with a simple, totally
uncontroversial no-brainer improvement that would not risk any sort of
ill-will that could hamper remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we
like. *THIS* is the fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing
is a minor issue by comparisonŠit could be any controversial change,
really.
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flightŠthe first
time an aircraft is ever flownŠdirectly into combat without having
tested the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that¹s
NEVER been done before in such a politically divisive environment
basically amounts toŠbut it¹s even worse. We¹re basically risking the
entire air force (not just one plane) over an argument regarding how
many seats a plane should have that we¹ve never flown before.
We¹re talking billlions of dollars¹ worth of other people¹s money that
is on the line here. Don¹t we owe it to them to at least test out the
system on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to
make sure we can even deploy it without things breaking? I don¹t even
care about the merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this
point, to be quite honest - that¹s such a petty thing compared to what
I¹m talking about here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism
that¹s NEVER been attempted before (and which as many have pointed out
is potentially fraught with serious problems) on such a politically
divisive, polarizing issue, the result is each side will refuse to
cooperate with the other out of spiteŠand can easily lead to a war,
tanking the value of everyone¹s assets on both chains. All so we can
process 8 times the number of transactions we currently do? Even if it
were 100 times, we wouldn¹t even come close to touching big payment
processors like Visa. It¹s hard to imagine a protocol improvement that¹s
worth the risk.
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture hereŠand to
understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out
of some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy
hard forks right now without facing these problems. And different people
obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these
changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially
giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have
proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our
belief that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than
trying to push some pet feature some of us want.
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are
doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what¹s right.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 15:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eric,

thank you for sharing your thoughts.

It obviously boils down to political beliefs, not so much technical
arguments. I understand that you are in favor of a "guided
decentralization" and you are most happily invited to follow this path. I
don't want to be on it. I want total decentralisation of bitcoin and many
other parts of the current system.

So in the end the hard fork might be perfect, because people like you will
not waste so much more energy and time fighting people like me (and others)
who are following different dogmata because we are using different coins
and talking about different code. Interestingly enough in the end we will
probably have a winner - determined by the price - so I am looking forward
to the outcome. It is just the time so make some bets, which I embrace.

Another interesting thing is, that you actually fear problems arising from
this. What do you have to loose? Just stick with the old bitcoin version
and weather this storm. Bitcoin is not going to vanish or break from this.
It is just forking. One fork will come stronger out of this. You just have
to choose a side and live with it, if you loose it all. But that is the
story of bitcoin since the beginning. If you ask me, you fear the choice,
not the change.

Cheers

Levin
Post by Adam Back via bitcoin-dev
Thank you Eric for saying what needs to be said.
Starting a fork war is just not constructive and there are multiple
proposals being evaluated here.
I think that one thing that is not being so much focussed on is
Bitcoin-XT is both a hard-fork and a soft-fork. It's a hard-fork on
Bitcoin full-nodes, but it is also a soft-fork attack on Bitcoin core
SPV nodes that did not opt-in. It exposes those SPV nodes to loss in
the likely event that Bitcoin-XT results in a network-split.
The recent proposal here to run noXT (patch to falsely claim to mine
on XT while actually rejecting it's blocks) could add enough
uncertainty about the activation that Bitcoin-XT would probably have
to be aborted.
Adam
On 17 August 2015 at 15:03, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything even
closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed here.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the
protocol
and have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part
it is a feature
of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to change the
rules
and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its most powerful
attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly
altered nor reversed by anyone.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past
and for the most part
these changes have been pretty uncontroversial
or at least, they have not
had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block size issue
is having. And even then, we’ve encountered a number of problems with these
deployments that have at times required goodwill cooperation between
developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s being
proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If even
fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you imagine the
kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some highly polarizing
issue might raise? Do you really think people are going to want to
cooperate?!?
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other people
might want feature X, others feature Y
and we can argue the merits of this
or that to death
but the fact remains that we have NEVER attempted any hard
forking change
not even with a simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer
improvement that would not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper
remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the
fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by
comparison
it could be any controversial change, really.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight
the first
time an aircraft is ever flown
directly into combat without having tested
the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that’s NEVER been
done before in such a politically divisive environment basically amounts
to
but it’s even worse. We’re basically risking the entire air force (not
just one plane) over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should
have that we’ve never flown before.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money that
is on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least test out the
system on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to make
sure we can even deploy it without things breaking? I don’t even care about
the merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be
quite honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking about
here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s NEVER been
attempted before (and which as many have pointed out is potentially fraught
with serious problems) on such a politically divisive, polarizing issue,
the result is each side will refuse to cooperate with the other out of
spite
and can easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets
on both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of transactions we
currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we wouldn’t even come close to
touching big payment processors like Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol
improvement that’s worth the risk.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here
and to
understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out of
some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy hard
forks right now without facing these problems. And different people
obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these
changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially
giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have
proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief
that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than trying to
push some pet feature some of us want.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are
doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what’s right.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 15:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
Dear Eric,
thank you for sharing your thoughts.
It obviously boils down to political beliefs, not so much technical arguments. I understand that you are in favor of a "guided decentralization" and you are most happily invited to follow this path. I don't want to be on it. I want total decentralisation of bitcoin and many other parts of the current system.
I specifically asked you to stop misrepresenting - I’m NOT in favor of guided decentralization, I never said anything like that. *THIS* is the problem
you’re reading intentions into others that simply are NOT there. If you don’t really understand something, ask.

I want complete decentralization - but for practical reasons, which should be obvious, we cannot start at this point. Bitcoin came into existence because Satoshi wrote a whitepaper and implemented the idea - and it was his rules. There was no voting, no committee, no proof-of-work, no nothing
it was a complete dictatorship in the beginning.
Post by Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
So in the end the hard fork might be perfect, because people like you will not waste so much more energy and time fighting people like me (and others) who are following different dogmata because we are using different coins and talking about different code. Interestingly enough in the end we will probably have a winner - determined by the price - so I am looking forward to the outcome. It is just the time so make some bets, which I embrace.
Another interesting thing is, that you actually fear problems arising from this. What do you have to loose? Just stick with the old bitcoin version and weather this storm. Bitcoin is not going to vanish or break from this. It is just forking. One fork will come stronger out of this. You just have to choose a side and live with it, if you loose it all. But that is the story of bitcoin since the beginning. If you ask me, you fear the choice, not the change.
Again, misrepresentation - “you fear the choice, not the change” - why should anyone ask *you* what I fear? Why don’t you ask *me*?
Post by Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
Cheers
Levin
Thank you Eric for saying what needs to be said.
Starting a fork war is just not constructive and there are multiple
proposals being evaluated here.
I think that one thing that is not being so much focussed on is
Bitcoin-XT is both a hard-fork and a soft-fork. It's a hard-fork on
Bitcoin full-nodes, but it is also a soft-fork attack on Bitcoin core
SPV nodes that did not opt-in. It exposes those SPV nodes to loss in
the likely event that Bitcoin-XT results in a network-split.
The recent proposal here to run noXT (patch to falsely claim to mine
on XT while actually rejecting it's blocks) could add enough
uncertainty about the activation that Bitcoin-XT would probably have
to be aborted.
Adam
On 17 August 2015 at 15:03, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything even closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed here.
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to the protocol
and have been frustrated because of the inability to do so.
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part
it is a feature of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very hard* to change the rules
and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin with one of its most powerful attributes: very well-defined settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly altered nor reversed by anyone.
We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past
and for the most part these changes have been pretty uncontroversial
or at least, they have not had nearly the level of political divisiveness that this block size issue is having. And even then, we’ve encountered a number of problems with these deployments that have at times required goodwill cooperation between developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s being proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before like this. If even fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused problems, can you imagine the kinds of potential problems that a hard fork over some highly polarizing issue might raise? Do you really think people are going to want to cooperate?!?
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other people might want feature X, others feature Y
and we can argue the merits of this or that to death
but the fact remains that we have NEVER attempted any hard forking change
not even with a simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer improvement that would not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper remedies were it not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the fundamental problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by comparison
it could be any controversial change, really.
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight
the first time an aircraft is ever flown
directly into combat without having tested the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork mechanism that’s NEVER been done before in such a politically divisive environment basically amounts to
but it’s even worse. We’re basically risking the entire air force (not just one plane) over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should have that we’ve never flown before.
We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money that is on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least test out the system on a far less controversial, far less divisive change first to make sure we can even deploy it without things breaking? I don’t even care about the merits regarding bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be quite honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking about here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s NEVER been attempted before (and which as many have pointed out is potentially fraught with serious problems) on such a politically divisive, polarizing issue, the result is each side will refuse to cooperate with the other out of spite
and can easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets on both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of transactions we currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we wouldn’t even come close to touching big payment processors like Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol improvement that’s worth the risk.
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here
and to understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing anything out of some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us are able to deploy hard forks right now without facing these problems. And different people obviously have different priorities and preferences as to which of these changes would be best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially giving *one* proposal special treatment above those that others have proposed. Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than trying to push some pet feature some of us want.
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin and are doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do what’s right.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
odinn via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-19 03:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Agreed.
Post by Adam Back via bitcoin-dev
Thank you Eric for saying what needs to be said.
Starting a fork war is just not constructive and there are
multiple proposals being evaluated here.
I think that one thing that is not being so much focussed on is
Bitcoin-XT is both a hard-fork and a soft-fork. It's a hard-fork
on Bitcoin full-nodes, but it is also a soft-fork attack on Bitcoin
core SPV nodes that did not opt-in. It exposes those SPV nodes to
loss in the likely event that Bitcoin-XT results in a
network-split.
The recent proposal here to run noXT (patch to falsely claim to
mine on XT while actually rejecting it's blocks) could add enough
uncertainty about the activation that Bitcoin-XT would probably
have to be aborted.
Adam
On 17 August 2015 at 15:03, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
NxtChg,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we’ve never attempted anything
even closely resembling a hard fork like what’s being proposed
here.
Many of us have wanted to push our own hard-forking changes to
the protocol…and have been frustrated because of the inability to
do so.
This inability is not due to any malice on anyone’s part…it is a
feature of Satoshi’s protocol. For better or worse, it is *very
hard* to change the rules…and this is exactly what imbues Bitcoin
with one of its most powerful attributes: very well-defined
settlement guarantees that cannot be suddenly altered nor
reversed by anyone.
We’ve managed to have a few soft forks in the past…and for the
most part these changes have been pretty uncontroversial…or at
least, they have not had nearly the level of political
divisiveness that this block size issue is having. And even then,
we’ve encountered a number of problems with these deployments
that have at times required goodwill cooperation between
developers and mining pool operators to fix.
Again, we have NEVER attempted anything even remotely like what’s
being proposed - we’ve never done any sort of hard fork before
like this. If even fairly uncontroversial soft forks have caused
problems, can you imagine the kinds of potential problems that a
hard fork over some highly polarizing issue might raise? Do you
really think people are going to want to cooperate?!?
I can understand that some people would like bigger blocks. Other
people might want feature X, others feature Y…and we can argue
the merits of this or that to death…but the fact remains that we
have NEVER attempted any hard forking change…not even with a
simple, totally uncontroversial no-brainer improvement that would
not risk any sort of ill-will that could hamper remedies were it
not to go as smoothly as we like. *THIS* is the fundamental
problem - the whole bigger block thing is a minor issue by
comparison…it could be any controversial change, really.
Would you want to send your test pilots on their first flight…the
first time an aircraft is ever flown…directly into combat without
having tested the plane? This is what attempting a hard fork
mechanism that’s NEVER been done before in such a politically
divisive environment basically amounts to…but it’s even worse.
We’re basically risking the entire air force (not just one plane)
over an argument regarding how many seats a plane should have
that we’ve never flown before.
We’re talking billlions of dollars’ worth of other people’s money
that is on the line here. Don’t we owe it to them to at least
test out the system on a far less controversial, far less
divisive change first to make sure we can even deploy it without
things breaking? I don’t even care about the merits regarding
bigger blocks vs. smaller blocks at this point, to be quite
honest - that’s such a petty thing compared to what I’m talking
about here. If we attempt a novel hard-forking mechanism that’s
NEVER been attempted before (and which as many have pointed out
is potentially fraught with serious problems) on such a
politically divisive, polarizing issue, the result is each side
will refuse to cooperate with the other out of spite…and can
easily lead to a war, tanking the value of everyone’s assets on
both chains. All so we can process 8 times the number of
transactions we currently do? Even if it were 100 times, we
wouldn’t even come close to touching big payment processors like
Visa. It’s hard to imagine a protocol improvement that’s worth
the risk.
I urge you to at least try to see the bigger picture here…and to
understand that nobody is trying to stop anyone from doing
anything out of some desire for maintaining control - NONE of us
are able to deploy hard forks right now without facing these
problems. And different people obviously have different
priorities and preferences as to which of these changes would be
best to do first. This whole XT thing is essentially giving *one*
proposal special treatment above those that others have proposed.
Many of us have only held back from doing this out of our belief
that goodwill amongst network participants is more important than
trying to push some pet feature some of us want.
Please stop this negativity - we ALL want the best for Bitcoin
and are doing our best, given what we understand and know, to do
what’s right.
_______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
- --
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 15:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Eric,
In the entire history of Bitcoin we've never attempted anything even closely resembling a hard fork like what's being proposed here.
These concerns are understandable. What's hard to understand is why he, he and he get to decide what is more risky - hitting the limit or forking for larger blocks?

Many people don't seem to think the upcoming hard fork is such a big risk.

---

And why there's so much fear that your side might lose to XT in a honest battle? Why is it suddenly not "let the best man win", but "we are right, they are enemies of the state, go get them!!!"?

This is the same fear dictators have of honest elections. If you know you can't win in a honest battle, you start rigging the game.

With recent "Satoshi" post even this list is not immune...

----

I don't know if everybody had a chance to appreciate this quote by theymos yet:

"If 90% of /r/Bitcoin users find these policies to be intolerable, then I want these 90% of /r/Bitcoin users to leave."

(https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/)

This is a quote worthy of Gaddafi. Fortunately, it's hard to be a dictator on the Internet, where you can't shoot people.
Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 16:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
FWIW,

I don’t think what theymos did is very constructive.I understand his position
but it only hurts the cause, unfortunately - the PR battle is not the same thing as a discussion on technical merits. He hurts the PR battle and plays into Mike’s hand by doing that. The actual underlying issue actually has little to do with block size - it has to do with Mike and Gavin feeling that the core devs are being obstructionist.

Regardless of the technical merits of XT, the fact that we’ve never done a hard fork before, not even for things some other devs have wanted
and not due to any malice on anyone’s part but because simply that’s just the nature of decentralized consensus with well-defined settlement guarantees
this is the problem - Mike and Gavin think they’re somehow special and their fork should be pushed while the rest of us resist pushing our own controversial pet ideas because we want civility and understand that at this stage in Bitcoin’s development trying to fork the blockchain over highly divisive issues is counterproductive and destructive.

But the fact of the matter is that in the PR battle, arguments against the fork actually play into Mike’s hand, and that’s the problem.

The whole block size thing is too nuanced and too easily spun simplistically. It’s too easy to spin resistance to bigger blocks (even though the resistance is actually much more towards untested hardforking mechanisms and serious security concerns) as “obstructionism” and it’s too easy to spin bigger blocks as “scalability” because most of the people can’t tell the fucking difference.

The fact is most of the people don’t really understand the fundamental issue and are taking sides based on charismatic leadership and authority which is actually entirely counter to the spirit of decentralized consensus. It’s beyond ironic.

If you guys want to win the PR battle, the key is to make it clear that you are not obstructionist and are giving everyone equal treatment
Bitcoin was designed such that changing the rules is *hard* and this is a feature. Bitcoin simply does not have a reliable and tested hard forking mechanism
and a hard fork for such a politically divisive issue will almost certainly lead to a lack of cooperation and refusal to work together out of spite. All of us would like to be able to process more transactions on the network. It’s not a matter of whether we think higher capacity is a bad thing - it’s more that some of us are concerned that Bitcoin is not sufficiently mature to be able to handle such a schism with so much hostility.

Let’s face it, folks - from a PR standpoint, the block size issue is irrelevant. Nobody really understands it except for a handful of people - I’ve tried to explain it, I’ve even written articles about it - but most people just don’t get it. Most people don’t really get scalability either - they seem to think that scalability is just doing the same thing you’ve always done manyfold.

Block size is an especially dangerous issue politically because it’s one of those that requires deep understanding yet superficially sounds really simple. It’s perfect Dunning-Kruger bait.

So let’s be a little smarter about this.
Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-17 16:55:43 UTC
Permalink
I should add that in the interest of peace and goodwill, I extend an offer to both Mike and Gavin to make their grievances heard
but only on the condition that we make a good effort to avoid misrepresentation and misreading of the other side’s intentions.
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
FWIW,
I don’t think what theymos did is very constructive.I understand his position
but it only hurts the cause, unfortunately - the PR battle is not the same thing as a discussion on technical merits. He hurts the PR battle and plays into Mike’s hand by doing that. The actual underlying issue actually has little to do with block size - it has to do with Mike and Gavin feeling that the core devs are being obstructionist.
Regardless of the technical merits of XT, the fact that we’ve never done a hard fork before, not even for things some other devs have wanted
and not due to any malice on anyone’s part but because simply that’s just the nature of decentralized consensus with well-defined settlement guarantees
this is the problem - Mike and Gavin think they’re somehow special and their fork should be pushed while the rest of us resist pushing our own controversial pet ideas because we want civility and understand that at this stage in Bitcoin’s development trying to fork the blockchain over highly divisive issues is counterproductive and destructive.
But the fact of the matter is that in the PR battle, arguments against the fork actually play into Mike’s hand, and that’s the problem.
The whole block size thing is too nuanced and too easily spun simplistically. It’s too easy to spin resistance to bigger blocks (even though the resistance is actually much more towards untested hardforking mechanisms and serious security concerns) as “obstructionism” and it’s too easy to spin bigger blocks as “scalability” because most of the people can’t tell the fucking difference.
The fact is most of the people don’t really understand the fundamental issue and are taking sides based on charismatic leadership and authority which is actually entirely counter to the spirit of decentralized consensus. It’s beyond ironic.
If you guys want to win the PR battle, the key is to make it clear that you are not obstructionist and are giving everyone equal treatment
Bitcoin was designed such that changing the rules is *hard* and this is a feature. Bitcoin simply does not have a reliable and tested hard forking mechanism
and a hard fork for such a politically divisive issue will almost certainly lead to a lack of cooperation and refusal to work together out of spite. All of us would like to be able to process more transactions on the network. It’s not a matter of whether we think higher capacity is a bad thing - it’s more that some of us are concerned that Bitcoin is not sufficiently mature to be able to handle such a schism with so much hostility.
Let’s face it, folks - from a PR standpoint, the block size issue is irrelevant. Nobody really understands it except for a handful of people - I’ve tried to explain it, I’ve even written articles about it - but most people just don’t get it. Most people don’t really get scalability either - they seem to think that scalability is just doing the same thing you’ve always done manyfold.
Block size is an especially dangerous issue politically because it’s one of those that requires deep understanding yet superficially sounds really simple. It’s perfect Dunning-Kruger bait.
So let’s be a little smarter about this.
Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-18 04:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Three things:

1) Hostility is generally the result of perceived hostility. If you assume
the best intentions of another person, you will eventually find yourself in
one of two places. Either you will find truth with that person (becuase
they are also seeking it), or you will drive them away (because you will
ask questions that can't be answered by someone trying to deceive).

2) The Wiki says "The current Core developers are Wladimir J. van der Laan,
Gavin Andresen, Jeff Garzik, Gregory Maxwell, and Pieter Wuille." I've
seen no hostility from any of these people.

3) The people who are threatened by Bitcoin aren't stupid enough to ignore
#1. Can anyone imagine that they have not hired highly skilled
psychological warfare agnts to do everything they can to "help" assault
what we decentralization enthusiasts have been working for?

About #2: I'm actually blind to hostility, and that is an intentional
affectation in response to my recognition of #1 and #3 together. If you
feel another person has expressed a bad idea, just ignore it. If you feel
they might be misleading others, post a reply about what you know to clear
up any possible misconceptions. There is no point in identifying
individuals who are being hostile, or pointing out hostility, or being
divisive. Let the rest of us recognize it on our own. Maybe send
something like what I'm writing now.

PS: If anyone is interested in conspiracy theories, I had written this into
my gmail compose window and (presumably) hit a wrong key which caused the
thread to be marked as spam and deleted my whole reply. It hadn't even
saved a draft. I've never seen gmail not save a draft before.

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev <
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
I should add that in the interest of peace and goodwill, I extend an offer
to both Mike and Gavin to make their grievances heard
but only on the
condition that we make a good effort to avoid misrepresentation and
misreading of the other side’s intentions.
On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:34 AM, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev <
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and
banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
FWIW,
I don’t think what theymos did is very constructive.I understand his
position
but it only hurts the cause, unfortunately - the PR battle is not
the same thing as a discussion on technical merits. He hurts the PR battle
and plays into Mike’s hand by doing that. The actual underlying issue
actually has little to do with block size - it has to do with Mike and
Gavin feeling that the core devs are being obstructionist.
Regardless of the technical merits of XT, the fact that we’ve never done a
hard fork before, not even for things some other devs have wanted
and not
due to any malice on anyone’s part but because simply that’s just the
nature of decentralized consensus with well-defined settlement
guarantees
this is the problem - Mike and Gavin think they’re somehow
special and their fork should be pushed while the rest of us resist pushing
our own controversial pet ideas because we want civility and understand
that at this stage in Bitcoin’s development trying to fork the blockchain
over highly divisive issues is counterproductive and destructive.
But the fact of the matter is that in the PR battle, arguments against the
fork actually play into Mike’s hand, and that’s the problem.
The whole block size thing is too nuanced and too easily spun
simplistically. It’s too easy to spin resistance to bigger blocks (even
though the resistance is actually much more towards untested hardforking
mechanisms and serious security concerns) as “obstructionism” and it’s too
easy to spin bigger blocks as “scalability” because most of the people
can’t tell the fucking difference.
The fact is most of the people don’t really understand the fundamental
issue and are taking sides based on charismatic leadership and authority
which is actually entirely counter to the spirit of decentralized
consensus. It’s beyond ironic.
If you guys want to win the PR battle, the key is to make it clear that
you are not obstructionist and are giving everyone equal treatment
Bitcoin
was designed such that changing the rules is *hard* and this is a feature.
Bitcoin simply does not have a reliable and tested hard forking
mechanism
and a hard fork for such a politically divisive issue will almost
certainly lead to a lack of cooperation and refusal to work together out of
spite. All of us would like to be able to process more transactions on the
network. It’s not a matter of whether we think higher capacity is a bad
thing - it’s more that some of us are concerned that Bitcoin is not
sufficiently mature to be able to handle such a schism with so much
hostility.
Let’s face it, folks - from a PR standpoint, the block size issue is
irrelevant. Nobody really understands it except for a handful of people -
I’ve tried to explain it, I’ve even written articles about it - but most
people just don’t get it. Most people don’t really get scalability either -
they seem to think that scalability is just doing the same thing you’ve
always done manyfold.
Block size is an especially dangerous issue politically because it’s one
of those that requires deep understanding yet superficially sounds really
simple. It’s perfect Dunning-Kruger bait.
So let’s be a little smarter about this.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
GC via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-18 05:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Dave,

³ Š highly skilled psychological warfare agents ..²

Paranoia, much?

Or perhaps the ³enemies" of Bitcoin are just sitting patiently, waiting for
it to collapse in time due to its internal contradictions.

From: Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Reply-To: Dave Scotese <***@litmocracy.com>
Date: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 12:37 pm
To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Annoucing Not-BitcoinXT

Three things:

1) Hostility is generally the result of perceived hostility. If you assume
the best intentions of another person, you will eventually find yourself in
one of two places. Either you will find truth with that person (becuase
they are also seeking it), or you will drive them away (because you will ask
questions that can't be answered by someone trying to deceive).

2) The Wiki says "The current Core developers are Wladimir J. van der Laan,
Gavin Andresen, Jeff Garzik, Gregory Maxwell, and Pieter Wuille." I've seen
no hostility from any of these people.

3) The people who are threatened by Bitcoin aren't stupid enough to ignore
#1. Can anyone imagine that they have not hired highly skilled
psychological warfare agnts to do everything they can to "help" assault what
we decentralization enthusiasts have been working for?

About #2: I'm actually blind to hostility, and that is an intentional
affectation in response to my recognition of #1 and #3 together. If you
feel another person has expressed a bad idea, just ignore it. If you feel
they might be misleading others, post a reply about what you know to clear
up any possible misconceptions. There is no point in identifying
individuals who are being hostile, or pointing out hostility, or being
divisive. Let the rest of us recognize it on our own. Maybe send something
like what I'm writing now.

PS: If anyone is interested in conspiracy theories, I had written this into
my gmail compose window and (presumably) hit a wrong key which caused the
thread to be marked as spam and deleted my whole reply. It hadn't even
saved a draft. I've never seen gmail not save a draft before.

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
I should add that in the interest of peace and goodwill, I extend an offer to
both Mike and Gavin to make their grievances heardŠbut only on the condition
that we make a good effort to avoid misrepresentation and misreading of the
other side¹s intentions.
On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:34 AM, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Great, so how about you go tell theymos to stop censoring XT posts and
banning the other side on /r/Bitcoin?
Let users decide what Bitcoin is or isn't.
FWIW,
I don¹t think what theymos did is very constructive.I understand his
positionŠbut it only hurts the cause, unfortunately - the PR battle is not
the same thing as a discussion on technical merits. He hurts the PR battle
and plays into Mike¹s hand by doing that. The actual underlying issue
actually has little to do with block size - it has to do with Mike and Gavin
feeling that the core devs are being obstructionist.
Regardless of the technical merits of XT, the fact that we¹ve never done a
hard fork before, not even for things some other devs have wantedŠand not due
to any malice on anyone¹s part but because simply that¹s just the nature of
decentralized consensus with well-defined settlement guaranteesŠthis is the
problem - Mike and Gavin think they¹re somehow special and their fork should
be pushed while the rest of us resist pushing our own controversial pet ideas
because we want civility and understand that at this stage in Bitcoin¹s
development trying to fork the blockchain over highly divisive issues is
counterproductive and destructive.
But the fact of the matter is that in the PR battle, arguments against the
fork actually play into Mike¹s hand, and that¹s the problem.
The whole block size thing is too nuanced and too easily spun simplistically.
It¹s too easy to spin resistance to bigger blocks (even though the resistance
is actually much more towards untested hardforking mechanisms and serious
security concerns) as ³obstructionism² and it¹s too easy to spin bigger
blocks as ³scalability² because most of the people can¹t tell the fucking
difference.
The fact is most of the people don¹t really understand the fundamental issue
and are taking sides based on charismatic leadership and authority which is
actually entirely counter to the spirit of decentralized consensus. It¹s
beyond ironic.
If you guys want to win the PR battle, the key is to make it clear that you
are not obstructionist and are giving everyone equal treatmentŠBitcoin was
designed such that changing the rules is *hard* and this is a feature.
Bitcoin simply does not have a reliable and tested hard forking mechanismŠand
a hard fork for such a politically divisive issue will almost certainly lead
to a lack of cooperation and refusal to work together out of spite. All of us
would like to be able to process more transactions on the network. It¹s not a
matter of whether we think higher capacity is a bad thing - it¹s more that
some of us are concerned that Bitcoin is not sufficiently mature to be able
to handle such a schism with so much hostility.
Let¹s face it, folks - from a PR standpoint, the block size issue is
irrelevant. Nobody really understands it except for a handful of people -
I¹ve tried to explain it, I¹ve even written articles about it - but most
people just don¹t get it. Most people don¹t really get scalability either -
they seem to think that scalability is just doing the same thing you¹ve
always done manyfold.
Block size is an especially dangerous issue politically because it¹s one of
those that requires deep understanding yet superficially sounds really
simple. It¹s perfect Dunning-Kruger bait.
So let¹s be a little smarter about this.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/> .
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
_______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-***@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-18 05:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Dave,
“ 
 highly skilled psychological warfare agents ..”
Paranoia, much?
Well, I respect your characterization of it as paranoia, sure. If you
check out the #1 podcast in higher education on podomatic.com, you may find
that it's more awareness than paranoia. There are other resources too,
like GnosticMedia, SchoolSucksProject, and Corbett Report. These programs
are not addressing bitcoin specifically or even generally. They simply
show that people with high intelligence do not always have the best
interests of the rest of their species in mind when they engineer
solutions. For example, taxation is a form of parasitic human cannibalism,
not in the eating of flesh, but in the consuming of life force. The
methods of farming humans to tolerate such a system are quite advanced.
Learning is the answer. Defend yourself for the sake of everyone else.

Dave
NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-18 09:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Eric,
FWIW...
These are all good points and I agree with most of them. Yes, the block size debate is a lucky historical accident, which makes it easier for XT to pull off the split, but that's not the point.

The point is, the split _must_ happen because the centralized governance of Bitcoin became a bigger problem than the risks of a fork or larger blocks.

You cannot govern a decentralized currency with a centralized entity.

That's why we shouldn't fear hard forks - they are the new reality, and if we cannot set up a reliable process for them to happen then there _is_ no decentralized Bitcoin and we all might as well just give up and go home.

----

And that's why it would be nice to have a more complex voting mechanism in the block header (see this proposal for the new header format, for example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1151698) and other initiatives to make forking more reliable and user choice easier.

This is a better path than trying to suppress all forks by dictatorship methods of the few currently in power.
Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev
2015-08-19 09:47:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:46 AM, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Post by NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
Eric,
FWIW...
These are all good points and I agree with most of them. Yes, the block size debate is a lucky historical accident, which makes it easier for XT to pull off the split, but that's not the point.
The point is, the split _must_ happen because the centralized governance of Bitcoin became a bigger problem than the risks of a fork or larger blocks.
You cannot govern a decentralized currency with a centralized entity.
Nobody has complained about Bitcoin-XT (nor libbitcoin, nor libcoin,
nor against any other of the multiple alternative implementations of
bitcoin).
Please, understand that people are worried about the schism hardfork,
not about the software fork (which happened long ago when some of
Hearn's changes were reverted due to security concerns). If Bitcoin-XT
didn't had a schism hardfork, nobody would be calling it "an altcoin".
For consensus rules we use "the implementation is the specification"
as a principle for multiple reasons. By separating libconsensus (a
work in progress [far less progress than I would like]) we remove
Bitcoin Core's privileged position: Bitcoin Core wouldn't be "the
specification of the consensus rules" anymore, just a reference
implementation that is not "consensus-safer" compared to alternative
implementations (since they can use libconsensus directly [or a
software fork of it in the case of a reasonable schism hardfork]).
Post by NxtChg via bitcoin-dev
That's why we shouldn't fear hard forks - they are the new reality, and if we cannot set up a reliable process for them to happen then there _is_ no decentralized Bitcoin and we all might as well just give up and go home.
We have many reasons to fear schism hardforks (
https://github.com/jtimon/bips/blob/bip-forks/bip-0099.mediawiki#Schism1_hardforks
), even though they may be unavoidable at some point (ie for an
ASIC-reset hardfork).

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