Discussion:
[bitcoin-dev] Proposal to update BIP-32
Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
2016-04-20 16:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Hello Bitcoin Developers,

I would like to make a proposal to update BIP-32 in a small way.

TL;DR: BIP-32 is hard to use right (due to its requirement to skip
addresses). This proposal suggests a modification such that the
difficulty can be encapsulated in the library.

#MOTIVATION:

The current BIP-32 specifies that if for some node in the hierarchy
the computed hash I_L is larger or equal to the prime or 0, then the
node is invalid and should be skipped in the BIP-32 tree. This has
several unfortunate consequences:

- All callers of CKDpriv or CKDpub have to check for errors and handle
them appropriately. This shifts the burden to the application
developer instead of being able to handle it in the BIP-32 library.

- It is not clear what to do if an intermediate node is
missing. E.g. for the default wallet layout, if m/i_H/0 is missing
should m/i_H/1 be used for external chain and m/i_H/2 for internal
chain? This would make the wallet handling much more difficult.

- It gets even worse with standards like BIP-44. If m/44' is missing
should we use m/45' instead? If m/44'/0' is missing should we use
m/44'/1' instead, using the same addresses as for testnet?
One could also restart with a different seed in this case, but this
wouldn't work if one later wants to support another BIP-43 proposal
and still keep the same wallet.

I think the first point alone is reason enough to change this. I am
not aware of a BIP-32 application that handles errors like this
correctly in all cases. It is also very hard to test, since it is
infeasible to brute-force a BIP-32 key and a path where the node does
not exists.

This problem can be avoided by repeating the hashing with slightly
different input data until a valid private key is found. This would
be in the same spirit as RFC-6979. This way, the library will always
return a valid node for all paths. Of course, in the case where the
node is valid according to the current standard the behavior should be
unchanged.

I think the backward compatibility issues are minimal. The chance
that this affects anyone is less than 10^-30. Even if it happens, it
would only create some additional addresses (that are not seen if the
user downgrades). The main reason for suggesting a change is that we
want a similar method for different curves where a collision is much
more likely.

#QUESTIONS:

What is the procedure to update the BIP? Is it still possible to
change the existing BIP-32 even though it is marked as final? Or
should I make a new BIP for this that obsoletes BIP-32?

What algorithm is preferred? (bike-shedding) My suggestion:

---

Change the last step of the private -> private derivation functions to:

. In case parse(I_L) >= n or k_i = 0, the procedure is repeated
at step 2 with
I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || I_R || ser32(i))

---

I think this suggestion is simple to implement (a bit harder to unit
test) and the string to hash with HMAC-SHA512 always has the same
length. I use I_R, since I_L is obviously not very random if I_L >= n.
There is a minimal chance that it will lead to an infinite loop if I_R
is the same in two consecutive iterations, but that has only a chance
of 1 in 2^512 (if the algorithm is used for different curves that make
I_L >= n more likely, the chance is still less than 1 in 2^256). In
theory, this loop can be avoided by incrementing i in every iteration,
but this would make an implementation error in the "hard to test" path
of the program more likely.

The other derivation functions should be updated in a similar matter.
Also the derivation of the root node from the seed should be updated
in a similar matter to avoid invalid seeds.

If you followed until here, thanks for reading this long posting.

Jochen
Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
2016-04-21 12:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Sipa, you are probably the most competent to answer this. Could you please
tell us your opinion? For me, this is straightforward, backward compatible
fix and I like it a lot. Not sure about the process of changing "Final" BIP
though.

Slush

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev <
Post by Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
Hello Bitcoin Developers,
I would like to make a proposal to update BIP-32 in a small way.
TL;DR: BIP-32 is hard to use right (due to its requirement to skip
addresses). This proposal suggests a modification such that the
difficulty can be encapsulated in the library.
The current BIP-32 specifies that if for some node in the hierarchy
the computed hash I_L is larger or equal to the prime or 0, then the
node is invalid and should be skipped in the BIP-32 tree. This has
- All callers of CKDpriv or CKDpub have to check for errors and handle
them appropriately. This shifts the burden to the application
developer instead of being able to handle it in the BIP-32 library.
- It is not clear what to do if an intermediate node is
missing. E.g. for the default wallet layout, if m/i_H/0 is missing
should m/i_H/1 be used for external chain and m/i_H/2 for internal
chain? This would make the wallet handling much more difficult.
- It gets even worse with standards like BIP-44. If m/44' is missing
should we use m/45' instead? If m/44'/0' is missing should we use
m/44'/1' instead, using the same addresses as for testnet?
One could also restart with a different seed in this case, but this
wouldn't work if one later wants to support another BIP-43 proposal
and still keep the same wallet.
I think the first point alone is reason enough to change this. I am
not aware of a BIP-32 application that handles errors like this
correctly in all cases. It is also very hard to test, since it is
infeasible to brute-force a BIP-32 key and a path where the node does
not exists.
This problem can be avoided by repeating the hashing with slightly
different input data until a valid private key is found. This would
be in the same spirit as RFC-6979. This way, the library will always
return a valid node for all paths. Of course, in the case where the
node is valid according to the current standard the behavior should be
unchanged.
I think the backward compatibility issues are minimal. The chance
that this affects anyone is less than 10^-30. Even if it happens, it
would only create some additional addresses (that are not seen if the
user downgrades). The main reason for suggesting a change is that we
want a similar method for different curves where a collision is much
more likely.
What is the procedure to update the BIP? Is it still possible to
change the existing BIP-32 even though it is marked as final? Or
should I make a new BIP for this that obsoletes BIP-32?
---
. In case parse(I_L) >= n or k_i = 0, the procedure is repeated
at step 2 with
I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || I_R || ser32(i))
---
I think this suggestion is simple to implement (a bit harder to unit
test) and the string to hash with HMAC-SHA512 always has the same
length. I use I_R, since I_L is obviously not very random if I_L >= n.
There is a minimal chance that it will lead to an infinite loop if I_R
is the same in two consecutive iterations, but that has only a chance
of 1 in 2^512 (if the algorithm is used for different curves that make
I_L >= n more likely, the chance is still less than 1 in 2^256). In
theory, this loop can be avoided by incrementing i in every iteration,
but this would make an implementation error in the "hard to test" path
of the program more likely.
The other derivation functions should be updated in a similar matter.
Also the derivation of the root node from the seed should be updated
in a similar matter to avoid invalid seeds.
If you followed until here, thanks for reading this long posting.
Jochen
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Pavol Rusnak via bitcoin-dev
2016-05-08 10:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
Sipa, you are probably the most competent to answer this.
Could you please tell us your opinion? For me, this is
straightforward, backward compatible fix and I like it a lot.
Not sure about the process of changing "Final" BIP though.
Sipa: Marek told me you posted your answer and he received it, but it
never reached the list. Could you please resend after figuring out what
went wrong?
--
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol "stick" Rusnak
SatoshiLabs.com
Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
2016-05-08 11:09:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Pavol Rusnak via bitcoin-dev
Post by Pavol Rusnak via bitcoin-dev
Post by Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
Sipa, you are probably the most competent to answer this.
Could you please tell us your opinion? For me, this is
straightforward, backward compatible fix and I like it a lot.
Not sure about the process of changing "Final" BIP though.
Sipa: Marek told me you posted your answer and he received it, but it
never reached the list. Could you please resend after figuring out what
went wrong?
AFAIK Sipa has not been on this list for some time.
Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
2016-05-08 13:48:27 UTC
Permalink
I received this:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pieter Wuille <***@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal to update BIP-32
Post by Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev <
Post by Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
Hello Bitcoin Developers,
I would like to make a proposal to update BIP-32 in a small way.
I think the backward compatibility issues are minimal. The chance
that this affects anyone is less than 10^-30. Even if it happens, it
would only create some additional addresses (that are not seen if the
user downgrades). The main reason for suggesting a change is that we
want a similar method for different curves where a collision is much
more likely.
I think I change like this makes a lot of sense technically, and I wish I
had known how BIP-32 would end up being used inside higher level mechanisms
that automatically increment the position beyond the control of the
application generating them. The inclusion of the requirement was there
because ECDSA is notorious for security problems under biased secret keys,
though it's really only a certificational issue for secp256k1 (due to its
group order being so close to 2^256).
Post by Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
Post by Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
What is the procedure to update the BIP? Is it still possible to
change the existing BIP-32 even though it is marked as final? Or
should I make a new BIP for this that obsoletes BIP-32?
BIPs are not supposed to be updated with new ideas, only
remarks/links/typos/clarifications/..., so that their bumbers can
unambiguously be used to refer to an idea. My suggestion would be to write
a new BIP that overrides parts of BIP32, and then put a note in BIP32 that
a better mechanism is available that is unlikely to change things in
reality for the secp256k1 curve.

I guess
Post by Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
Post by Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
---
. In case parse(I_L) >= n or k_i = 0, the procedure is repeated
at step 2 with
I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || I_R || ser32(i))
---
I think this suggestion is simple to implement (a bit harder to unit
test) and the string to hash with HMAC-SHA512 always has the same
length. I use I_R, since I_L is obviously not very random if I_L >= n.
There is a minimal chance that it will lead to an infinite loop if I_R
is the same in two consecutive iterations, but that has only a chance
of 1 in 2^512 (if the algorithm is used for different curves that make
I_L >= n more likely, the chance is still less than 1 in 2^256). In
theory, this loop can be avoided by incrementing i in every iteration,
but this would make an implementation error in the "hard to test" path
of the program more likely.
The chance for failure is a bit higher than that, as it only requires a
failed key (one in 2^128) in the first step, followed by an iteration that
results in the same I_R to cause a cycle. If you take multiple failures
before the cycle starts into account, the combined chance for failure is
p/(1-p)^2 / 2^256 (with p the chance for a random inadmissable key), which
is not much better than 1 in 2^128 for high values of p.

An alternative that always converges is to retry with an appended iteration
count is possible:
{
I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || || ser32(i)) for the first
iteration
I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || || ser32(i) || ser32(j)) for
iteration number j, with j > 0
}

Cheers,
--
Pieter
Pavol Rusnak via bitcoin-dev
2016-05-08 22:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marek Palatinus via bitcoin-dev
unambiguously be used to refer to an idea. My suggestion would be to write
a new BIP that overrides parts of BIP32, and then put a note in BIP32 that
a better mechanism is available that is unlikely to change things in
reality for the secp256k1 curve.
I guess, we'll write that down to SLIP-0032 then.
--
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol "stick" Rusnak
SatoshiLabs.com
Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
2016-04-21 15:28:45 UTC
Permalink
In practice the probability of this case triggering is on the order of 2^-128 or something astronomically tiny. I've been using BIP32 for a few years already as have many others...I don't think we've ever had to handle this case. Justifiably, many app developers feel like the additional complexity of properly handling this case is not worth the effort.

Having said that, if the handling of this case is simple to implement and easy to isolate in the program flow, I am in favor of doing something along the lines of what you propose.

- Eric
Post by Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
Hello Bitcoin Developers,
I would like to make a proposal to update BIP-32 in a small way.
TL;DR: BIP-32 is hard to use right (due to its requirement to skip
addresses). This proposal suggests a modification such that the
difficulty can be encapsulated in the library.
The current BIP-32 specifies that if for some node in the hierarchy
the computed hash I_L is larger or equal to the prime or 0, then the
node is invalid and should be skipped in the BIP-32 tree. This has
- All callers of CKDpriv or CKDpub have to check for errors and handle
them appropriately. This shifts the burden to the application
developer instead of being able to handle it in the BIP-32 library.
- It is not clear what to do if an intermediate node is
missing. E.g. for the default wallet layout, if m/i_H/0 is missing
should m/i_H/1 be used for external chain and m/i_H/2 for internal
chain? This would make the wallet handling much more difficult.
- It gets even worse with standards like BIP-44. If m/44' is missing
should we use m/45' instead? If m/44'/0' is missing should we use
m/44'/1' instead, using the same addresses as for testnet?
One could also restart with a different seed in this case, but this
wouldn't work if one later wants to support another BIP-43 proposal
and still keep the same wallet.
I think the first point alone is reason enough to change this. I am
not aware of a BIP-32 application that handles errors like this
correctly in all cases. It is also very hard to test, since it is
infeasible to brute-force a BIP-32 key and a path where the node does
not exists.
This problem can be avoided by repeating the hashing with slightly
different input data until a valid private key is found. This would
be in the same spirit as RFC-6979. This way, the library will always
return a valid node for all paths. Of course, in the case where the
node is valid according to the current standard the behavior should be
unchanged.
I think the backward compatibility issues are minimal. The chance
that this affects anyone is less than 10^-30. Even if it happens, it
would only create some additional addresses (that are not seen if the
user downgrades). The main reason for suggesting a change is that we
want a similar method for different curves where a collision is much
more likely.
What is the procedure to update the BIP? Is it still possible to
change the existing BIP-32 even though it is marked as final? Or
should I make a new BIP for this that obsoletes BIP-32?
---
. In case parse(I_L) >= n or k_i = 0, the procedure is repeated
at step 2 with
I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || I_R || ser32(i))
---
I think this suggestion is simple to implement (a bit harder to unit
test) and the string to hash with HMAC-SHA512 always has the same
length. I use I_R, since I_L is obviously not very random if I_L >= n.
There is a minimal chance that it will lead to an infinite loop if I_R
is the same in two consecutive iterations, but that has only a chance
of 1 in 2^512 (if the algorithm is used for different curves that make
I_L >= n more likely, the chance is still less than 1 in 2^256). In
theory, this loop can be avoided by incrementing i in every iteration,
but this would make an implementation error in the "hard to test" path
of the program more likely.
The other derivation functions should be updated in a similar matter.
Also the derivation of the root node from the seed should be updated
in a similar matter to avoid invalid seeds.
If you followed until here, thanks for reading this long posting.
Jochen
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
Pavol Rusnak via bitcoin-dev
2016-04-21 17:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
I don't think we've ever had to handle this case.
This is the main problem: we are not sure, because not a lot of software
does this checks. Also even if you do check, it's hard to handle an
exception (you can't always skip - what if the problematic node is m/44'?).

One of the motivations is to fix BIP-32 so it can be used for
non-secp256k1 curves as well. For NIST P-256 curve this chance is 2^-32.

Jochen even managed to find an example[1]:

m/28578'/33941 where m is derived from
"000102030405060708090a0b0c0d0e0f" seed.

[1]
https://github.com/trezor/trezor-crypto/commit/16ff4387ae79429e629a5454708abf7385b3a9a3
--
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol "stick" Rusnak
SatoshiLabs.com
Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev
2016-04-22 09:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
In practice the probability of this case triggering is on the order of
2^-128 or something astronomically tiny. I've been using BIP32 for a few
years already as have many others...I don't think we've ever had to
handle this case. Justifiably, many app developers feel like the
additional complexity of properly handling this case is not worth the
effort.
Having said that, if the handling of this case is simple to implement
and easy to isolate in the program flow, I am in favor of doing
something along the lines of what you propose.
Yes, the idea is to handle the problem in the library so that app
developers don't have to handle the case of missing addresses or just
ignore the problem. It also doesn't add much complexity to the library
as the current implementations already test for invalid keys. The
library would then just retry instead of returning an error (that most
app developers would then ignore).

Jochen
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